Peter Joseph

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Naggly Nagger
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Naggly Nagger » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:57 am

using paper money is a choice. feel free to gather what every resrouce is available to you, or offer a service to people, but what do you expect in return? it would take cohesion from a fairly large number of people for your lifestyle to continue as it is, if there was no standard currencty.

just to put in another perspective, imagine darkfall with no gold. xyson is a game that has no currency, only resources...wonder how that ended up?

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Phain Saevio
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Phain Saevio » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:06 am

With the technology we have today, there is no need for labor. We can use technology to automate everything. We can use our resources to build an unlimited supply of cities. These cities will be designed to be sustainable, and all connected to a network that tracks and distributes all resources to where they are needed; for in this society, there is no profit. There is only a need. A need for human survival, human well being, and human development. In this society, we put our minds together and move forward. There is no need to do anything but research and study the sciences that will allow us to survive happier and more efficiently. You can only patch that box so many times before you have to replace it. I'm not asking you to believe what I'm saying. I'm asking you to consider how horrible our society is and how great it can be.
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Lifebane incarnate » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:22 am

Reminds me alot of Star Trek: TNG.

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Naggly Nagger
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Naggly Nagger » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:58 am

Phain Saevio wrote:With the technology we have today, there is no need for labor. We can use technology to automate everything. We can use our resources to build an unlimited supply of cities. These cities will be designed to be sustainable, and all connected to a network that tracks and distributes all resources to where they are needed; for in this society, there is no profit. There is only a need. A need for human survival, human well being, and human development. In this society, we put our minds together and move forward. There is no need to do anything but research and study the sciences that will allow us to survive happier and more efficiently. You can only patch that box so many times before you have to replace it. I'm not asking you to believe what I'm saying. I'm asking you to consider how horrible our society is and how great it can be.


i'm picking up what your putting down. it's hard to argue what society is better for evolution and the good of the earth. you may see this view as positive in every aspect, others see alot of negative aspects. same goes with the current society. what i dont get is, why you or people who believe in this, think that this is the only acceptable society? i'm still pretty unbiased, i see the pros and cons in both.

there is a large enough world population, land, and resources for people to start this type of society. so whats stopping them? there is no real need to bash the current society and say its the wrong way of living.

edit: in a zeitgeist society, there is no war or premature deaths. you say there is no labor and everything is automated(might not be 100% right), but what purpose in life will there be other than to reproduce and consume resources?

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Phain Saevio
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Phain Saevio » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:30 pm

Naggly Nagger wrote:
Phain Saevio wrote:With the technology we have today, there is no need for labor. We can use technology to automate everything. We can use our resources to build an unlimited supply of cities. These cities will be designed to be sustainable, and all connected to a network that tracks and distributes all resources to where they are needed; for in this society, there is no profit. There is only a need. A need for human survival, human well being, and human development. In this society, we put our minds together and move forward. There is no need to do anything but research and study the sciences that will allow us to survive happier and more efficiently. You can only patch that box so many times before you have to replace it. I'm not asking you to believe what I'm saying. I'm asking you to consider how horrible our society is and how great it can be.


i'm picking up what your putting down. it's hard to argue what society is better for evolution and the good of the earth. you may see this view as positive in every aspect, others see alot of negative aspects. same goes with the current society. what i dont get is, why you or people who believe in this, think that this is the only acceptable society? i'm still pretty unbiased, i see the pros and cons in both.

there is a large enough world population, land, and resources for people to start this type of society. so whats stopping them? there is no real need to bash the current society and say its the wrong way of living.

edit: in a zeitgeist society, there is no war or premature deaths. you say there is no labor and everything is automated(might not be 100% right), but what purpose in life will there be other than to reproduce and consume resources?


I don't believe this is the only way. I believe that monetaryism is the only way not to. Consider the exponential function and apply it to history. How far have we come from 1500-2011? How far have we come just in the last 100 years? 40 years? 10 years? People have so much faith in their pre-existing institutions and for some reason... they believe in it. No matter how much poverty, war, and economy slavery one experiences, we still perpetuate this broken monetary system on a global scale. What people don't completely grasp is the idea of our earth not being able to sustain our own existence in the near future. We are exponentially growing and exponentially destroying our host for life, and without a system that can track and manage every resource that our planet has to offer while building and managing and recreating these resources sustainably, we will not survive.

"We were saying how very important it is to bring about, in the human mind, the radical revolution. The crisis is a crisis in consciousness, the crisis that cannot anymore accept the old norms, the old patterns, the ancient traditions and considering what the world is now, with all the misery, conflict, destructive brutality, aggression and so on. Man is still as he was, is still brutal, violent, aggressive, acquisitive, competitive and... he has built a society along these lines. What we are trying in all these discussions and talks here, is to see if we cannot radically bring about a transformation of the mind. *Not accept things as they are* - but to understand it, to go into it, examine it, give your heart and your mind with every thing that you have to find out. A way of living differently. But that depends on you and not somebody else. Because in this there is no teacher, no pupil. There's no leader, there is no guru, there's no master, no savior. You yourself are the teacher, and the pupil, you're the master, you're the guru, you are the leader, you are everything! And, to understand is to transform what is."
-Jiddu Krishnamurti

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localdrunk
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby localdrunk » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:36 pm

way too much for me to type to explain all this, i'd rather discuss it in vent.

yes money is not "needed" per say. it is a representation of value, that is correct. without it we would live on a trade system where value is placed in items, but non the less value is still there.

the problem wiht all this stuff is it just "sounds good". marxism sounds good on paper too when left out one variable... human nature. take the venus project for example a great clean city where all resources are used most efficiently... a "rail system so driving is not needed" as he says.... well it may not be needed but we are free people we have the choice to do things not needed, having some sort of governing entity tell me i cant drive if i want to is restricting freedom. so who controls this hypothecial city? Man, and man has built in faults like greed, corruption, and the desire for power.

it is very hard to explain the connections, but control is the problem. control equals power, in a society such as the venus project heavy restrictions would have to be placed on the populous for it to work; the more control one has on a populous the more power one has to do what he will with it.

our society is not perfect, nor will it ever be, and trying to get there is a dangerous path to take. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A UTOPIA.

remember this: half of the people in this world think a world of peace love and happiness is a perfect place to live.... the other half think its a perfect place to pillage.

there are three types of people in this world, sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs.... which are you?

kol taggar
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby kol taggar » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:57 pm

I don't take anything seriously that opens with a theme even remotely similar to the twilight zone.

I take things even less seriously when they use the term "intelligent planning" as a cheap veil for central planning.

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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby [RN] Turboflex Grav » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:17 pm

apparently someone dropped some acid and watched fight club

kol taggar
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby kol taggar » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:39 pm

Phain Saevio wrote:What value does money have other than the idea of it's value? If every human being on the earth woke up tomorrow and believed that money had no value, then it would simply be a piece of paper and nothing more. Our economy was not made to be infinite, and we are finally starting to feel the repercussions of this finite economy right now. Honestly, I can't believe it took 98 years to finally start to fall apart.


There is a pretty catastrophic misunderstanding of "money" underlying this whole paragraph. By money I take it you mean currency, specifically the US Dollar. In the future you should be careful to differentiate between a fiat currency and a currency that is tied to a commodity such as gold. Officially, the Dollar has only been a "fiat" currency for 40 years. Unofficially the Federal Reserve spent ~1917-1971 publicly pretending that the value of the dollar was tied to Gold while simultaneously ignoring the gold standard when it was inconvenient. Standing there with a straight face and blaming "currency" for the failures of central bankers is a bit ridiculous, especially when you go on to promote "intelligent" planning. I doubt that any central banker thinks their plans are anything but "intelligent" when they implement them. Central planners in general always think they are making the intelligent decision.


Phain Saevio wrote: What people don't completely grasp is the idea of our earth not being able to sustain our own existence in the near future. We are exponentially growing and exponentially destroying our host for life, and without a system that can track and manage every resource that our planet has to offer while building and managing and recreating these resources sustainably, we will not survive.
"...."
-Jiddu Krishnamurti


Personally I find this notion to be complete and utter garbage. For a long time, dating back most notably to Malthus, this was the conventional wisdom regarding population growth. The Ultimate Resource by Professor Julian Simon (1981) does a fairly solid job debunking this claim. The argument is that people are the ultimate resource. People are the source of all productivity gains, so as the number of people increases productivity likewise increases and things get cheaper. (Now obviously if you think anything not grown on an "all organic" farm is the devil you are going to have problems with this. In which case I suggest you find a job that pays well enough for you to buy local and spend time gardening.) [Edit: Check out the wiki for one of Economic's more notable examples of the clash of these theories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%8 ... lich_wager ]

Haven't seen Krishnamurti's scribbles quoted for a while. I'm not a huge fan, doesn't seem to be anything all that economically insightful there, mostly amiable moral philosophy though.

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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Guest » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:51 pm

No offense Phain, and I have no clue wth this is about, but I know it's not DF related, so I'm moving it to a more appropriate section. Personal agena = not for DF allies!

*edit* moved to Quan's Zen

P.S. LAY OFF THE ACID :D

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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Guest » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:53 pm

ops did not mean to lock the thread, apparently I didn't fully understand how moving a thread works :P

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Naggly Nagger
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Naggly Nagger » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:02 pm

posting real quick from phone, bear with me.

localdrunk - you say theres 3 types of people, maybe in the current society. i basically say i have to disagree with this arguement. theres 1 type of person, and they seek compainonship, stimulation, and substanence.

kol - money / currency is a loose term. i definetaly understand the concept of it, and the central banking system. the problem is corruption from people who seek their stimulation from conquest.

kol - near future is a relative term. there is no doubt that the current society is depleting millions and billions of resources at a very fast rate. one way to measure efficiency is by the amount of waste produced. the amount of waste in the world is almost surging!

with these things said, peter joseph is more or less a film maker. to better understand zeitgeist, you may want to research jacque fresco

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Naggly Nagger
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Naggly Nagger » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:25 pm

localdrunk - control is not the problem in a zeitgeist society. cohesion and cordination are the only 2 main factors holding this back IMO.

i can speak from personal experience. when money is not an issue in life, you do what you enjoy. there is no such thing really as human nature. greed, corruption, etc are biproducts of todays society. there are cultures in the world today who have no reports of these flaws in human nature. an example is the amish. i dont recall offhand what they are called in the other parts of the world, but they do exist. due to the lack of population and resources they are not technically advanced to say the least.

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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby RazorMasticator » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:28 pm

lol guys, if you would have put this on Qyan zens (where it belongs) there would have been a much much larger flame war going, dont be scared to get burnt by the rest of us! be brave! :D

PS whats wrong with dropping acid?
How dare you come on this show with a pegan/marxist agenda! this is gods popquiz! -simon amstell

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Naggly Nagger
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Re: Peter Joseph

Postby Naggly Nagger » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:30 pm

RazorMasticator wrote:lol guys, if you would have put this on Qyan zens (where it belongs) there would have been a much much larger flame war going, dont be scared to get burnt by the rest of us! be brave! :D

PS whats wrong with dropping acid?


dont think anyone is scared LOL :P were a pretty close alliance, so its basically second nature to discuss stuff in the alliance forum or clan alliance chat in game

its our little "zeitgeist" :P


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